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Forum:Population error on Westeros page
The section of the Westeros wiki page, referring to "In the Books" incorrectly describes the North as having the third lowest population in Westeros in the book series. This is never stated anywhere in the books. The wiki suggests that this conclusion is reached based on the comparative army sizes raised during the War of the Five Kigns. Well, this is an incorrect conclusion, based on an incomplete understanding of the series. Martin has in fact heavily implied in one of his SSM quotes, that the Stormlands have the second lowest mainland population (with Dorne having the lowest, as confirmed by Doran Martell himself). Furthermore, Martin has also stated that the North can raise an equivalent number of men to the Vale. Considering that the Vale is a rather small, very densely populated area, it is only logical that the Vale will be able to marshal a higher percentage of its total population to war than the vast, wild and sparsely populated North ever could. Thus, if these two regions can raise a similar number of men to arms, despite the North not being able to raise as high a percentage of its population to arms as the Vale can, this would logically mean that the North has a higher overall population than the Vale. Therefore, at the very least, we know with reasonable certainty that the Iron Isles, Dorne, Stormlands and the Vale all fall below the North in terms of overall population numbers. We have no information to compare the population numbers of the North with any of the remaining three regions (the Reach, West and Riverlands). All we know is that the Reach has the highest population of any region. Thus, all we can definitively say, is that the North has a lower population than the Reach, and a higher population than the Iron Isles, Dorne, Stormlands and the Vale. We have no evidence either way where the North lies in comparison to the West or the Riverlands. Stating definitively that either of these two regions are more populated than the North, is therefore not possible. The distinction always has to be made between overall population numbers, and population density. While the North has by far the lowest population density, there is no evidence that it has any fewer people overall than either the West or the Riverlands, while there is clear evidence that it has more people than the Vale, Stormlands, Dorne and Iron Isles. The key issue to further remember is that the North raises a lower percentage of its overall population to arms than any other region. Therefore, if the North has a smaller army than another region, it is no guarantee that it has a smaller population. And if it has an equal army size to another region, it most assuredly has a higher overall population, due to the low mobilization rate in the North, compared to other regions. The Westeros page on the wiki therefore needs to be updated to correct this error. "Dorne has more in common with the distant North than either does with the realms that lie between them. One is hot and one is cold, yet these ancient kingdoms of sand and snow are set apart from the rest of Westeros by history, culture, and tradition. '''Both are thinly peopled, compared to the lands betwixt."' --''The World of Ice and Fire --The Dragon Demands (talk) 20:14, November 9, 2014 (UTC) Yes, thinly peopled means low population density. So the North and Dorne have the lowest population densities. This is not disputed. But low population density does not mean low overall population if you have a large enough territory, as in the case of the North. Take the Stormlands for example. It covers about one sixth the land area of the North. It can therefore have 3 times the population density of the North, but still only have half the total population of the North. Martin has explicitly stated, in answer to a direct question, that the North can raise the same number of troops as the Vale. When asked about the population of the Stormlands in that same conversation, his answer was: "The Stormlands have a lot of rocks and trees and rain." As the Ice and Fire book wiki also states, Martin gave his broad approval to the army numbers quoted in the old Ice and Fire RPG (Guardians of Order, I think it was called). He said those numbers were roughly accurate according to what the average knowledgeable Westerosi of the time would believe on the matter. And in that RPG, the Vale and the North were listed at 45000 soldiers, with the Stormlands at 30000. Free Northman (talk) 20:40, November 9, 2014 (UTC) We would need more information.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 20:46, November 9, 2014 (UTC) There is a lot of evidence in-series, as well. Consider that neither Dorne nor the Stormlands (nor the Riverlands for that matter) have a city, yet the North has White Harbor with a population in the tens of thousands. Given that the North's urbanization rate would be even lower than that of the southron kingdoms, due to its vast, harsh landscape and spread-out population, this is another indication that it has a higher overall population than a number of the southron kingdoms. Also remember that the Stormlands of today is significantly smaller than the Stormland kingdom of 400 years ago. At one point the Storm King ruled all the way up to the Neck, and much of the eastern Riverlands as well. And they also ruled significant territories in the Eastern Reach. But first the Ironborn drove them out of the Riverlands, then the Gardeners drove them from the Reach, and finally Aegon the Dragon took the Crownlands from them. So the Stormland kingdom of today cannot match the strength of the Stormland kingdom of centuries gone by. It is a shadow of its former self. This while the North still rules all of the territories it ruled going back to the arrival of the Andals, thousands of years ago. There is a lot more in-series evidence, but given that Martin has basically stated it outright, I think that is only corroborating data, rather than crucial to proving the point itself. For example, while easily 80% of Dorne is covered by desert and therefore infertile, we are told in the books that even the Gift - right up against the Wall - is fertile farmland in the North. And that the wind in White Harbor is like a warm bath compared to the wind at the Wall. So if the Gift is fertile farmland, it is quite clear that there is a lot more fertile farmland in the southern parts of the North around White Harbor, Hornwood, the Rills etc, which are almost 1000 miles South of the Wall. Also note that even the Karstarks, in the far northeastern forests, have raised around 2750 men to date. This while the Florents are considered a powerful House in the South, and yet Stannis states that they can raise 2000 men at most. Now, if the Karstarks can raise 2750 men in the far North, how many more can lords like the Manderlys raise, in much warmer lands of comparative size, 500 miles further South? Free Northman (talk) 21:11, November 9, 2014 (UTC)